The MCIULearns Podcast
The MCIU Learns podcast is where education leaders, innovators, and experts share insights and best practices to elevate learning and empower schools. Each episode features thought-provoking conversations with thought leaders, presenters, and program directors from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit (MCIU) and beyond. Whether we’re discussing cutting-edge programs, professional development strategies, or the latest trends in education, our goal is to inspire and build capacity in educators, administrators, and all those passionate about improving student outcomes.
The MCIULearns Podcast
The Human Side of Math Classrooms: Beyond Right Answers with Chase Orton
Chase Orton shares his vision for transforming math education by shifting teacher identity from content deliverers to "cultural stewards" of students' mathematical stories. He advocates for embracing imperfection while continuously growing, focusing on human connections rather than test scores, and creating classrooms where mistakes are valuable learning opportunities.
Join us for upcoming learning opportunities with Chase Orton at MCIU, including a virtual text talk series in September-October and a three-day in-person workshop series covering "Building Thinking Classrooms" on October 29th, December 3rd, and February 25th. Visit https://learn.mciu.org for more information.
And that's a big part of my work, as for teachers, k-12 is to really shift our professional identity, that we are not just teachers of content, but we are cultural stewards. Right, we're caretakers of the math stories that our students are authoring in our classroom. We constantly have to be evaluating our thinking and asking ourselves are the actions I'm taking in the classroom as productive as I think that they are?
Speaker 2:Hello Montgomery County and welcome to the MCIU Learns podcast. My name is Brandon and this is our conversation with ed leaders, thought leaders, people in the space of education working to improve outcomes on behalf of and with kids all across our state, across Montgomery County, and I am joined today by two amazing colleagues from the Office of Organizational and Professional Learning. I'm going to let them introduce themselves and our special guest today.
Speaker 3:Hi Erin Barry. Here in the Office of Professional Learning, I work primarily in the areas of math and inclusive practices, joined by my colleague Kirpa.
Speaker 4:Kirpa here same thing, project consultant at MCIU, and I do math mainly.
Speaker 3:So we're thrilled today to be joined by Chase Orton, educator, speaker and author of the Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher A Journey to Reclaim Our Professional Growth. Chase is a passionate advocate for teacher-driven change and is best known for helping educators reimagine what's possible in their classrooms. So, without further ado, welcome Chase.
Speaker 1:Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. We're going to get started off with just some questions here. First off, why did you write this book? The Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher?
Speaker 1:I wrote this book for two reasons. One, throughout my career working with teachers. Obviously this job is extremely challenging, extremely difficult and it's grueling, it's exhausting and teacher burnout is a real issue. And so I worry about teacher well-being and making sure that teachers have the vitality and enthusiasm that they need to do their work really well. And so I wrote this book to help them kind of reclaim some of that professional flourishment or that wellbeing that we all need as teachers. And I also wrote it because I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I say our cultural relationship in this country with mathematics is pretty grim, it's not necessarily a healthy relationships. And so I wrote this book to also kind of rehabilitate and and that relationship with mathematics and having helping teachers and students in classrooms realize that the purpose of math class is about not just understanding content but about developing a robust and healthy relationship and mindset toward mathematics, that style of thinking and problem solving so one of the things that your book stresses is how mathematic teachers are imperfect and unfinished.
Speaker 4:What do you mean by that, and why is that mindful, so powerful for K-12 classrooms?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the purpose of the word imperfect is to really kind of bring out into the open about the fact that as teachers, we all have this vision of an ideal math classroom where all of our students are thriving, we're able to create these inclusive spaces of belonging where every child feels like they can be successful, regardless of where they are academically with their understanding of mathematics. And so I think in the teacher world, in our professional world, we're often very private about that. We hide our imperfections behind closed classroom doors and we have a sense of, I think, shame around the fact that we're not able to do more for some of our students and I try to just make that okay. While all of us have this vision of equity and inclusion and all students thriving and getting what they need, none of us are achieving that vision, and I certainly never did as a high school math teacher and so I want to kind of bring that up and bring that to the surface about the fact that none of us are really crushing it and delivering these perfect lessons day in and day out. So I try to be open and public about the fact that our normal setting as a teacher is to be imperfect and it's just the nature and the reality of the work that we do, given the professional landscape that we work in and the system of public education. And so that's that idea around being imperfect in our practice and being open about the fact that there are things that each and every single one of us can do to become better teachers.
Speaker 1:And here we get to the second word, about being unfinished.
Speaker 1:And what I mean about being unfinished is unfinished in our own thinking about our beliefs, about our actions and also our mindset around the purpose of our work and to be a teacher, we constantly have to be evaluating our thinking and asking ourselves are the actions I'm taking in the classroom as productive as I think that they are right? Are the beliefs that I have about my identity as a teacher or what my students can and can't do? Are those beliefs productive for the work that I'm trying to do? And so it takes a lot of courage to be a teacher, because you're constantly looking for ways that you can improve. Those two words are really important to me as a teacher, about you know, our natural state of being imperfect but also needing to create the conditions around us that encourage us to stay unfinished in our thinking and our practice as teachers sure you know working and spending our time in adult learning and professional learning and really working with people to help improve practices across many you know developmental paths and journeys as a teacher.
Speaker 2:My question for you is you know, from your perspective, your approach, what do you do to help make that professional learning that you know, continuous improvement, meaningful and sustainable for math teachers?
Speaker 1:continuous improvement, meaningful and sustainable for math teachers. Growth is hard, change is hard. It requires us to upset some of the things that we do in our classroom and to try something new. To really work on a new craft or a new practice in our teaching requires us to sometimes take steps backwards in our progress, and so that change has to be worth it right, like the pain of growth has to be worth the effort, rather than staying the same and staying finished in our practice. And so I try to really connect all professional learning down to teacher identity and our purpose as educators, and so I ask teachers at the beginning of every workshop that I do whether it's my own, for Imperfect and Unfinished, or whether it's workshops for Peter Loliadal and Building Thinking Classrooms.
Speaker 1:I really try to anchor it into what is that human data that you're trying to achieve in the classroom, and really center all of the professional learning on their professional identity, their purpose as educators and all of us as teachers, whether K-12.
Speaker 1:We do the work that we do because we love the children that we're serving and we're investing in our future right?
Speaker 1:These are young people that end up becoming citizens in this country, and we're really trying to empower them and get them to think about their abilities as problem solvers and collaborators and being able to discuss and talk about their thinking.
Speaker 1:And so I really try to center teacher thinking around what is the human data that they're trying to achieve, what is the math story that they want all their students to have?
Speaker 1:And that's in a big juxtaposition to the mainstream status quo of the system, which is about standardized test scores and all these other measures of accountability. And I try to work with districts and leaders to get them to realize that we as teachers are not motivated by test scores, we're not nourished by test scores, and when we're looking at that test score data, that satellite data, we're not getting that granular data that we need that can actually give us direction and tell us how we can improve on a day-to-day level. So for professional growth to be worth it, right Like what's in it for me as a teacher and what it's in it for you as a teacher is creating and achieving and getting closer to getting that human data, that vision of equity, that vision of full inclusion and belonging in a math classroom that really nourishes our teaching soul, our passion as educators. And so I try to center all professional learning around that the purpose and the identity of what motivates us and our professional why as teachers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. So, from your perspective, what is a practical step? You know what is something someone can do, because you're speaking about the desire to bring out our humanity and connect with each other, and you know how. That's what really drives us as teachers. What's a practical step that someone can take, or a math teacher could take, to humanize their classroom and connect more deeply with students?
Speaker 1:I'm all about elevating student voice and helping students in a classroom feel valued for the contributions they do bring into the classroom. So some practical advice. I think about the beginning of the school year really tapping into what is the math story that our students are already bringing into our classrooms and how do we make that explicit. And I think that that's something that can go. It's really powerful in a building, thinking classrooms where thinking and writing is up on the walls. But having students go to the boards and write about their experience just even it's full sentences or just words about you know, how does math class make you feel and who are you as a mathematical person and what do you think about mathematics and getting those words out there. Not all of them are negative, Some of them are really positive, but I think it's really powerful when students stand in a room and they're reading all these words and emotions about their math identity and their math story. And I think that elevating that voice is really important at the beginning of the school year and what it does that beginning of the school year, what it does for us as teachers, is help us focus on what really matters, which is what is the math story that our students are authoring in the classroom really matters, which is what is the math story that our students are authoring in the classroom, and that's a big part of my work.
Speaker 1:As for teachers, K-12 is to really shift our professional identity, that we are not just teachers of content but we are cultural stewards.
Speaker 1:Right, we're caretakers of the math stories that our students are authoring in our classroom, and then, throughout the year, it's talk to your students about how math class is going for them.
Speaker 1:I think so much of the feedback in a math classroom is us, the teacher, down to the students, and there needs to be more opportunities for students to express what their experience is like in the classroom and for teachers to be really in tune about what are students seeing from their perspective. And to summarize that really in short, I say if you want to become a better teacher and you don't know how, ask your students, because they're watching you every single day and they know you and they know your strengths and also they see your blind spots, and so, as a teacher, if you have the courage to interview your students and and get that data from them, you can do this on your, on your tests that you give your students and have questions about you know how's math class going for you? Uh, what grade would you give me as your teacher for this unit and why you know, and asking them about different things that I can, um, that I can do better for you as your teacher. Thank you.
Speaker 4:I think you brought a really good point about culture and test scores and measures of accountability. So, and math is seen as either right or wrong and a lot of times we get so focused on concentrating on just getting the right answer. How can we help students see that mistakes are okay and failures are okay in math and how do we change that mindset and how do we help support teachers to help them change that mindset?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I often feel like the system measures what's easy to measure, and it's easy to measure a traditional math problem and whether or not the answer is right or wrong. Certainly, in a math classroom, in a science classroom, in any sort of classroom, we're all striving for truth and trying to define what that truth is, define what that truth is. In math class, I think a lot of the truth that is out there is in the process and in the experience of the thinking and the different ways we make meaning of the problems that we're working with. And so there's this tension inherently for math teachers between being torn between I've got to get kids to get right answers and I also want them to be critically thinking problem solvers that have a sense of perseverance and risk-taking and can collaborate with one another. And so there's this tension here. And so we as teachers, we're only measuring the right and wrong answers, and I talk about the need. There needs to be this alignment as an educator to really measure the things that you value, and as a teacher, because sometimes we talk a lot about like we want our students to have this loving relationship with mathematics, to see themselves as capable mathematical thinkers and that we value.
Speaker 1:We say that we value mistakes and then we punish them for making the mistakes on a test and we don't allow them the opportunity for revision and for more growth. And I think it's absolutely essential that we do that, because students see the hypocrisy that we have sometimes as teachers. We say that we value mistakes and then we punish them for it. Right, we say that we value the process and the thinking, yet we're sitting there only looking at right and wrong answers. So we, as teachers, really need to be measuring those things and giving feedback on those things that we really value.
Speaker 1:And this is if you're looking for other specifics about this in Building Thinking Classrooms. This is about what Chapter 12 is all about. It's about really identifying and surfacing those cultural competencies that we want our students to have, and by that I mean fundamentally perseverance, risk-taking, collaboration, communication all those things that I've kind of mentioned before and Peter talks about in building thinking classrooms, but also the joy and the wonder and the curiosity and the laughter that also nourishes us as teachers. And so chapter 12 really talks about how do I work with students to create these rubrics right, where students can self-assess, they can peer assess and they can also be a tool that we, as teachers, can use with our students to really measure those human data that we value, that mindset that we value in the classroom.
Speaker 3:I love that and I know you've sort of alluded to a couple of things that are really resonating with me around this idea of like shifting professional identity and measuring those things we value in math, not just correct answers.
Speaker 3:If there was maybe one piece of advice that you could give to a math teacher and I know you'll kind of get into this as you join us next year for your series whether it's a new math teacher or somebody who's been, you know, teaching for 20 years, who wants to feel more inspired or connected or reflective in their practice. Is there any one thing, maybe that you would just drop out there as like a quick nugget?
Speaker 1:A quick nugget. I'm way too long-winded for a quick nugget here. Let me give you a couple. I'll go briefly.
Speaker 1:I think the first thing to realize is that your professional well-being as a teacher is your own responsibility, right, like if you're really looking to the system to provide you all the professional learning and the professional development you need. If you're looking to that to help you become the teacher that you want to become, you're going to be disappointed. And so I tell teachers, individually and collectively really our professional journey and the legacy that we are creating as teachers is really on us to create, and I know that I'm asking us to do more work. And so this is where I go to measuring what you value, which is that human data. Right, like we need to get away from navigating test scores and what our students don't know, right, and we need to move away from having our students feel seen for their deficits to having our students feel seen for their brilliance. And so I really encourage teachers to make a really big shift in their identity toward being focused on that human data, and that this journey is really hard. You can't go it alone. You're going to need some buddies, You're going to need some colleagues that you have a tenacious relationship with right, like really vulnerable, and you're able to give each other the feedback and the perspective that we need as teachers, and do that for each other, because sometimes it's hard to see our own blind spots.
Speaker 1:And then the last piece I have is the best use of your professional time is just to go watch another colleague teach. It really is, and for some reason in our culture of professionalism, going into another classroom and watching our colleagues do their thing is a really abnormal, unusual thing and it's a scary thing, right, which is really kind of silly. Like I couldn't imagine two pilots in the cockpit feeling insecure about flying an airplane in front of each other I hope they don't have that or two surgeons in an OR right, like so many other professions. Like it's normal for us to watch each other do our thing, but it's so valuable it's the best use of your time, whether you're in your 25th year of teaching or in your first year of teaching, is making a regular practice 45 minutes a week if you can of just watching another colleague teach.
Speaker 1:Math Doesn't have to be your grade level right. When you go in there and you watch other teachers teach, you really start to see the missed opportunities because you're not so cognitively loaded as being the lead teacher and having to deliver this lesson, and so when we see missed opportunities in other people's classrooms, we begin to wonder about our own, and we can see whatever it is that we need to see. So take ownership over your professional vitality. Focus on the things that nourish your passion for teaching, because you're going to need that fuel. Build relationships with colleagues that you trust and that you can collaborate with, and then learn to see math class from the student perspective by being in other people's classrooms as much as possible.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was like a whole just like home run of amazing, wonderful things. Chase, I couldn't agree more with what you've shared. This, you know this with us today. That last piece about you know your, your parallels to other professions and how you really need to lean on your colleagues really speaks to me. My whole family works in education. We talk about that a lot, how we need to lean into each other and grow, and that's just awesome. Erin, I know Chase is coming to join us. I know we've got some awesome things coming up in the early part of the kickoff of next school year.
Speaker 3:You want to share kind of details on what Chase is bringing to MCIU next year? Yeah, absolutely so. Prior to Chase coming in October, kirpa and I will be running a text talk with his text, the Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher. That will happen virtually three sessions for one hour on September 25th, october 9th and October 23rd. And then Chase will join us at the end of October and he's going to do a three day series. The first day is focused on introduction to building thinking classrooms. The second day will be extending the collective experience to individual understanding and on day three he's going to be focused on assessment in the thinking classroom. Those will run October 29th, december 3rd and February 25th.
Speaker 2:Awesome, yeah, a really of of offerings and, as you can hear, chase has a lot of amazing things to share. Chase, thank you so much for joining us today and giving us kind of a preview of what to expect next fall, and thank you, aaron and Kirpa, for bringing Chase onto our radar. I know there's there's a lot of people that should hop on this, as there's, you know, really good stuff heading into next year. Thank you once again, everybody for joining us.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for having me, and it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:So if you're interested in those series, I'm going to drop those links down in the description of the podcast. We'll also have them up on the MCIU Learning Network, learnmciuorg. Be sure to check those out. If you need more information, please feel free to reach out for details. Be sure to like and subscribe across all of our channels on social media and on all the podcast networks that you listen to. Thank you once again, Aaron and Kirpa. We look forward to more math conversations and we'll see everybody on the next episode. Thank you.